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Bilago
11-10-2008, 07:16 PM
Friends dispute abuse suspicions in slaying - Crime & courts (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/)


Romero, a 29-year-old employee of a construction company, was shot with a .22-caliber rifle last Wednesday along with Timothy Romans, a 39-year-old man who rented a room in his house. Police say the boy planned killings
Police said Romero's son planned and methodically carried out the killings, and confessed. Authorities would not discuss specifics of the confession. The boy has been charged with two counts of murder.


Kids these days...

ViperSRT3g
11-10-2008, 07:29 PM
Kids these days...

It seems to me that a lot more kids have been making the news lately doing horrible things. What is going on... :/

Kenshyn
11-10-2008, 08:03 PM
A little young to be killing, yeah?

Belphegor
11-10-2008, 08:21 PM
I find it more displeasing that they abused his age competence and pretty much left him with no right to representation before questioning. This is grounds for a mistrial to begin with.

BD-ICY
11-10-2008, 08:23 PM
A little young to be killing, yeah?

Your never to young...to kill.

ParadiseFaust
11-10-2008, 11:25 PM
I think he's just crazy. However, to take the role of Fox News:

This is what happens when you play too much CoD4.
Tf2 on the other hand, is too cartoony to incite real violence.
I argue unrealistic shooters are funner. And uh.. safer.
Debate.

Dyndrilliac
11-11-2008, 04:30 AM
...

Am I the only one wondering where this eight year old boy got a rifle? WTF.

Edit: I find it humorous the article doesn't say where he got the gun, only that "the father took him on hunting trips" and "was a good parent". I suspect the boy got the gun from his father's gun cabinet, and that it was left unlocked. Turns out he's a ****ty parent, they just don't have sense enough to pass judgment where it's due. No telling what other poor parenting skills those gun toting bible thumping psychos over-looked in their bid to maintain their sense of normality.

test-acc
11-11-2008, 05:02 AM
This is why guns should be illegal!!

Oh and GTA's fault too.

Yep.

el-camino-ss
11-11-2008, 05:23 AM
A little young to be killing, yeah?

Not really, my little brother is 8 and he has a mind of his own and speaks it. He has been so angry with me that he throws some pretty good punches. I am sure if the kid WAS abused then he would have no issues turning a gun on his dad.

Calaspawn
11-11-2008, 06:12 AM
I think they held him in interrogation until they broke him. He than confessed so he could leave, because of his age they probably bribed him also.

NickF
11-11-2008, 08:55 AM
I hate people who think video games cause violence.

JeweyK
11-11-2008, 11:50 AM
This is why Grand Theft Auto San Andreas and Grand Theft Auto IV should receive the AO rating.

I blame World Of Warcraft though.

Z.A.R
11-11-2008, 01:00 PM
There has got to me so much more that what the main stream media has told us. It is not everyday that an 8 year old goes on a killing spree.

K? Pŕo?ćtiόnŹ
11-11-2008, 02:27 PM
How would you know?

Zhuinden
11-11-2008, 02:43 PM
I'm more than 150% sure that a person doesn't plan killing someone without an appropriate reason.

TearsOfAngels
11-11-2008, 02:51 PM
A...ma....zing.

This is why I dislike the news in general. They hear someone died, and immediately they suspect intentional murder. They find out it's a kid, and they just run with the same bulls*** story. I'm sorry, an 8-year-old doesn't have a developed enough brain to plan anything like that. I don't, and I can plan out plenty of other ways to kill someone, and if I was so determined, I'd be a lot more personal about it.

Also, why is it every time someone shoots someone else, bible-belts immediately jump to the conclusion that video games are to blame? I will laugh if one day a kid comes out and says "I saw it on the news." Let's see Fox 5 spin that.

K? Pŕo?ćtiόnŹ
11-11-2008, 03:02 PM
You're an idiot. It is completely possible that an 8yr old could plan and execute the murders. Have you ever actually hung around with an 8yr old?

TearsOfAngels
11-11-2008, 03:56 PM
It is completely possible that an 8yr old could plan and execute the murders.

Most everything is possible. It's just that this is not plausible.

Also, I spend time around the average collection of high school students, and they couldn't plan anything out to this depth. Granted, exceptions exist, but they are few and very far between.

BD-ICY
11-11-2008, 04:10 PM
Most everything is possible. It's just that this is not plausible.

Also, I spend time around the average collection of high school students, and they couldn't plan anything out to this depth. Granted, exceptions exist, but they are few and very far between.

What depth?

The kid probably just thought "I think I'm gonna kill my dad today cuz he grounded me" picked up a rifle and shot him.

6satan6archist6
11-11-2008, 04:17 PM
"The judge gave defense attorneys until Friday to either find an expert to evaluate the boy's competency or to agree to one suggested by the prosecutors. "

If this kid could plan this muder, I'm sure he is more than competant to stand trial. Had this murder been spontaineous I would have a different opinion. The kid is obviously nuts and needs to be, at the very least, locked away for the rest of his life.

CrazyGerbilEater
11-11-2008, 04:37 PM
Kids these days...

whos says kids havent been killing people for centuries, a little arsenic dumped into a stew, or a knife through the eye while asleep, there just wasn't such a wide coverage by media outlets.

media these days....

Mookster
11-11-2008, 05:29 PM
An eight year old isn't capable of fully understanding the act of murder, or it's ramifications, but sure, they're fully capable of committing the crime. This sort of thing is bound to happen from time to time, and it really should be taken with a grain of salt. The world doesn't have to change because an eight year old committed murder.
The media explosion is misleading; it's senseless to blame it on anything other than inevitable circumstance.

TearsOfAngels
11-11-2008, 05:53 PM
An eight year old isn't capable of fully understanding the act of murder, or it's ramifications, but sure, they're fully capable of committing the crime. This sort of thing is bound to happen from time to time, and it really should be taken with a grain of salt. The world doesn't have to change because an eight year old committed murder.
The media explosion is misleading; it's senseless to blame it on anything other than inevitable circumstance.

*doubletakes* Did I just hear a mod who said something intelligent?
That's a first, even for this forum.
Imaginary +1 rep for you, Mookster.

K? Pŕo?ćtiόnŹ
11-11-2008, 06:08 PM
Most everything is possible. It's just that this is not plausible.

Also, I spend time around the average collection of high school students, and they couldn't plan anything out to this depth. Granted, exceptions exist, but they are few and very far between.Do you know how hard it is to plan a murder?

1. Get gun
2. Wait for dad to get home
3. Shoot him

Holy ****, I now see the difficulty and completely agree.

TearsOfAngels
11-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Do you know how hard it is to plan a murder?

1. Get gun
2. Wait for dad to get home
3. Shoot him

Holy ****, I now see the difficulty and completely agree.

Here's a counter-arguement.

1. They regularly go hunting, says neighbors. Any person who owns a gun and uses it that frecquently would know to have it in a gun safe or cabinet and make sure to lock the thing.
2. If the father is as responsible as everyone says he is, he'd probably enroll the kid in some sort day-care. Leaving a child who is that young at home alone is not the best idea.
3. This part is hard to argue with, but if parts one and two are valid, it's hardly necessary to do so.

You have your ideas of this, and I have mine. No need to speak down to me like I'm unintelligent because I'm new, so I'm asking you politely to stop doing so.

K? Pŕo?ćtiόnŹ
11-11-2008, 06:34 PM
I was speaking in general for anyone to plan a murder as you were saying kids at your high school couldnt even do it. A plan is a plan, it doesnt have to be smart and fool proof . And if you were in the kids situation you would know where there is holes you can slip through. Just like if you wanted something sweet in the pantry, you would find a way.

Warlord0117
11-12-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm looking forward to the day someone blames the news, when they murder someone. I'm tired of Music, Movies and Video Games takeing the heat.

ParadiseFaust
11-13-2008, 07:21 AM
This is why Grand Theft Auto San Andreas and Grand Theft Auto IV should receive the AO rating.

Cause a dad who takes his 8 year old son hunting isnt going to buy him an AO game. Good parenting FTW

6satan6archist6
11-13-2008, 08:23 AM
An eight year old isn't capable of fully understanding the act of murder, or it's ramifications, but sure, they're fully capable of committing the crime.


I'm positive an eight year old is in fact capable of understanding the act of murder and its ramifications. If you know what death is, and you understand what it means to kill someone, you understand murder. The kid planned this in advance. He was more than aware of what he was doing. Remember that entire class of 8 years olds who planned to tie up, torture and eventually murder their teacher a few months back? Are we to believe that they didn't fully understand what they were planning either?

Sir_Winkey
11-13-2008, 09:12 AM
Yeah I heard about this on the news. It is pretty sad. I hope the courts can make the right decision in this. I don't know the details because I only know what the media has said. I just hope they don't decide to make an example out of an 8 year old who has a chance to change his life.

I personally don't think that an eight year old could be a coldblooded hardened murderer and criminal to the extent of what we perceive in murderous adults. But that is just my opinion from what I have seen in the media.

TearsOfAngels
11-13-2008, 01:19 PM
Chances are my opening my mouth here again will draw KC back to this topic.

We only hear what is said by adults. I mean, a child can not know what effect a murder could have on the rest of their life. Yes, if intentional it should involve some sort of repurcussion, but the kid is eight.


Remember that entire class of 8 years olds who planned to tie up, torture and eventually murder their teacher a few months back?

Again, only half the arguement. No one's going to take up the other half, but people are still bent to treat children like adults these days. That's what part of being a child is. You're supposed to make mistakes. Things like this should not get media coverage because it gets perpetuated to the depths it is in this discussion and other places, where overly-zealous individuals automatically condemn a child who's stil maturing and developing.

And people say I'm heartless.

Mookster
11-13-2008, 08:51 PM
I'm positive an eight year old is in fact capable of understanding the act of murder and its ramifications. If you know what death is, and you understand what it means to kill someone, you understand murder. The kid planned this in advance. He was more than aware of what he was doing. Remember that entire class of 8 years olds who planned to tie up, torture and eventually murder their teacher a few months back? Are we to believe that they didn't fully understand what they were planning either?
Well you're wrong. Children are idiots. It's much more likely that they will think linearly about an act and commit it, without expanding their thought to the consequences. If this child does grow up to be disturbed in the fashion that most murderers are, it will most likely be because of the confusion he's now forced to mature into.
Like I said, inevitable circumstance. It's a tragedy, not an abomination.

6satan6archist6
11-15-2008, 04:36 PM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. At 8 years old I knew what murder was. I knew that it was illegal and I knew that meant I could go to prison for it. As far as being forced to mature into confusion, this kid forced himself. He did the deed and now he has to pay for it.

Dr. Silence
11-15-2008, 09:47 PM
Don't care nor know how Law in America works but in Aus someone under 10 cannot be convicted of anything, unless intent is proved to such a high degree then the child is seen as an adult but this is beyond rare, if this child is going to court under murder then they must of done a good job convincing the judge that the child knew to a pin, exactly what he was doing.

K? Pŕo?ćtiόnŹ
11-16-2008, 07:16 AM
Well its certainly not a slap on the wrist offense but he is 8. Either way its ****ed up.

BXRu2Death
11-16-2008, 08:52 AM
Maybe he was a sociopath 8-year old?

Mookster
11-16-2008, 10:45 AM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. At 8 years old I knew what murder was. I knew that it was illegal and I knew that meant I could go to prison for it. As far as being forced to mature into confusion, this kid forced himself. He did the deed and now he has to pay for it.
At 8 years old I knew that riding my bicycle without a helmet was illegal, and honest to God, I thought I could go to prison for that too. It never stopped me. Kids, are, idiots. ****, I remember going after a friend of mine with a potato knife because he stole my Pokemon Yellow game and said he was going to erase it. As if I knew I could've killed him just like that? I was a naive little twat, like all other 8 year old boys.
You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the world outside your own little bubble. Do you understand what some of us mean when we talk about media spins? It's the media's way of conditioning and exploiting America's craving for pure excess. People are so ****ing disturbed nowadays that it isn't enough just for the 8 year old to kill his father by some tragic flaw in judgment, no, he's got to be an exact and unsympathetic, cold-blooded killer. People will search and prawn for the worst possible scenario just so they can be shocked, awed, and entertained by it. And you know, that's all fine when those people are doing that from the couch while they're watching the news, where their ignorance can't hurt anyone, but these idiots actually get called into court for jury duty. The mentality that's being bred is ridiculous; people want to see other people found guilty of over exaggerated crimes and they want the sentences to be exaggerated all the same just because on their own little disturbed level, they're entertained by the thought that the crime could actually take place.
It's ****ing sick.

6satan6archist6
11-16-2008, 06:16 PM
“At 8 years old I knew that riding my bicycle without a helmet was illegal, and honest to God, I thought I could go to prison for that too. It never stopped me. Kids, are, idiots. ****, I remember going after a friend of mine with a potato knife because he stole my Pokemon Yellow
game and said he was going to erase it. As if I knew I could've killed him just like that? I was a naive little twat, like all other 8 year old boys.”

You obviously weren’t a very bright kid. Chasing your friend with a knife over a game isn’t very intelligent. Kids may be idiots, but not all kids do things like that. Sure they may be spontaneous, but spontaneous is exactly that. You can’t consider pre-meditated murder to be spontaneous.


“You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the world outside your own little bubble. Do you understand what some of us mean when we talk about media spins?”

I know exactly what media spins are. I saw no spin to this story. A kids plans and carries out the murders of two people. Where is the spin there?


“People are so ****ing disturbed nowadays that it isn't enough just for the 8 year old to kill his father by some tragic flaw in judgment, no, he's got to be an exact and unsympathetic, cold-blooded killer.”

I will agree with you that people are disturbed. The media does love to cover stories like this. ‘If it bleeds, it leads’ as the saying goes. The news story never said the kid was unsympathetic or cold blooded. I highly doubt this murder was in cold blood. There is a reason this kid did this. Maybe abuse was a factor, or maybe they accidently erased the kids Pokemon game. The motives are unknown right now.

“these idiots actually get called into court for jury duty.”

Do you understand how jury selection works? In all jury trials prospective jurors go through a screening process. This is to insure that a potential juror doesn’t have any pre-conceived notions of guilt or innocence. A high profile case like this one will be will have a more extensive screening process. This is due to the fact the media can sometimes report with a biased spin/slant.

“The mentality that's being bred is ridiculous; people want to see other people found guilty of over exaggerated crimes and they want the sentences to be exaggerated all the same just because on their own little disturbed level, they're entertained by the thought that the crime could actually take place.
It's ****ing sick.”

I had no idea that you were an expert in psychology. Since you know so much about people and what they want; you should be using this skill to make money. Not posting on internet forums.

CrazyGerbilEater
11-16-2008, 09:44 PM
he needs to be punished, he did something wrong and must reap the consequences. If you do not punish him suffeicently, and add that fact to him being a ****ing psyco, your telling him its ok, and giving him another chance to do it again. Its child psychology, you punish a kid for doing somthing wrong, because you have to get through to him that it is wrong, and add somthing to it besides words.

Just because hes 10, doesnt say anything about how intelligent he is already. Everyone matures mentally at different rates, and it is possible this kid is alot smarter than you give him credit for. Maybe he realized that because hes a kid, hes not going to get convicted, and this is his only chance to do it without any real consequences.

He did it, he has to be punished, it doesnt matter how old he is. the reason you get punished for a crime does not change because of age, just because hes a kid doesnt mean its okay for him to go around killing people, he HAS to know its wrong, unless hes a ****ing retard, and therefore i doubt he'd have been able to kill an adult, he knows that hurting someone else is WRONG. his parents, i hope, have punished him for hitting them, hitting other people, and abusing animals. If not, that the childs already beyond repair without severe treatment.

Warlord0117
11-17-2008, 06:32 PM
I say give the kid the chair! Fry his ass!

BD-ICY
11-17-2008, 06:54 PM
If he would kill someone that close to him, think of what he would do to some random joe that pissed him off?

Lethal Injection.

Mookster
11-17-2008, 07:03 PM
You obviously weren’t a very bright kid. Chasing your friend with a knife over a game isn’t very intelligent. Kids may be idiots, but not all kids do things like that. Sure they may be spontaneous, but spontaneous is exactly that. You can’t consider pre-meditated murder to be spontaneous.
I was a naive little twat, but I didn't carry a potato knife by trade; he took my game and ran away, I went and got a knife, proceeded to search for him and find him with the intent of mortal threat or action. Again, that sort of ridiculously linear thinking is a quality only children have, in contrast to adults. Did I ponder how it would paralyze my ability to develop naturally as I aged and gained the critical thinking skills necessary to understand just how terrible of a thing I'd done, had I done it? No. The ability to think critically just is not there. Physically, the brain isn't developed to a point where it can and therefor the report should be treated as such.



“You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the world outside your own little bubble. Do you understand what some of us mean when we talk about media spins?”

Where is the spin there?
I will agree with you that people are disturbed. The media does love to cover stories like this. ‘If it bleeds, it leads’ as the saying goes. The news story never said the kid was unsympathetic or cold blooded. I highly doubt this murder was in cold blood. There is a reason this kid did this. Maybe abuse was a factor, or maybe they accidently erased the kids Pokemon game. The motives are unknown right now.
Do you understand how jury selection works? In all jury trials prospective jurors go through a screening process. This is to insure that a potential juror doesn’t have any pre-conceived notions of guilt or innocence. A high profile case like this one will be will have a more extensive screening process. This is due to the fact the media can sometimes report with a biased spin/slant.

The story is presented in such a way that it invokes the reader to envision the child much the same as you would an adult. "The child, planned, the murder." It's the insinuation that pisses me off, because as you can see, some people actually read and derive that a child could truly plan, and understand fully, the act of and ramifications of murder. That's completely ****ing retarded and I can't even believe I should have to argue against it. The thought of it though, is what catches people and makes them interested, and that interest makes them more willing to believe the retarded notion that a child is capable of that. That underlying human, morbid interest creates a bias toward the most shocking and disturbing scenario; that does, and has influenced jurors and judges to make ****ty decisions in the past. Look at all the wrongly accused rape trials toward men during the female cultural uprising in the 90's; the child offender smack down, when it became such a dinner topic that there were actually children copy-catting and fabricating stories without understanding what they were doing; the terror scare that's led to blatant atrocities like one with a good friend of mine, a Muslim fellow who lived in 3 different cities in Texas. Police were weekly visitors to his house because the neighbors just couldn't leave him the **** alone. He was actually approached on his own lawn by a drunk guy and forced to call the police, ended up having to fight the guy while they were on their way, and then he (the Muslim man)was charged with assault. Most American people, are ****ed in the head. You really think the judicial system is impervious to the biases fed to a generation by the media their entire lives'? You need to wake the **** up. It's a national lack of intelligence and good judgment.



“The mentality that's being bred is ridiculous; people want to see other people found guilty of over exaggerated crimes and they want the sentences to be exaggerated all the same just because on their own little disturbed level, they're entertained by the thought that the crime could actually take place.
It's ****ing sick.”

I had no idea that you were an expert in psychology. Since you know so much about people and what they want; you should be using this skill to make money. Not posting on internet forums.
Don't be a snide little **** with me. I don't need a doctorate to have a valid opinion about this topic.


Edit: @CrazyGerbilEater: The punishment should be only severe as required to prevent the child from committing like-crimes again; unfortunately, the punishment that he'll be serving when he does realize what he's actually done and later in life when he becomes fully capable of understanding exactly how this will burden him in every social aspect of his life along with the self-isolation that'll result from his realization of how different he now is, will be a punishment that will not only suffice for our ****ed up idea of "justice," in the "now you'll get yours" context, but also it'll probably end up crippling him completely and destroying any chance he'll ever become anything short of a trainwreck.

Dyndrilliac
11-18-2008, 02:34 AM
In agreement with Mookster's standpoint, the "eye for an eye" mentality of justice is thousands upon thousands of years old, and is like-wise as primitive a concept as you would expect from humans living that long ago. The fact we haven't come up with a better system by now simply says that humanity hasn't advanced very far. Sure we have all this spiffy technology, but we haven't taken any time to learn how to use it responsibly. To paraphrase Foamy, we're essentially monkeys running around with machine guns and machetes in a primal state fit only for unintelligent non-sentient life forms that most people would be quick to say we are far superior to in just about every way.

Edit: For those who aren't familiar with the basics of behavioral psychology and aren't familiar with the work of Ivan Pavlov (e.g.: "Pavlov's Dog"), I suggest you do some research. The foremost experts in the world on child psychology tend to agree that the minds of children are so undeveloped that they behave in ways that closely resembles that of domesticated animals. The key to getting a child to behave is to reinforce their good behavior while punishing bad behavior, and simply punishing the bad and not rewarding the good simply does not and will not get the job done. In addition, children tend to be less complicated than people think, and their motives tend to be very simple. I agree that the child probably had a very rigid and linear way of thinking when committing the act. The story of the girl and the black crayons (http://www.jumbojoke.com/black_crayons.html) is one that deeply reinforces that sometimes a child's behavior is influenced only by tangible factors, and that the intangible is largely irrelevant when analyzing their behavior.

CrazyGerbilEater
11-18-2008, 04:17 PM
I never said how much he should be punished, only that he must be, and severly. Its possible he will regret it, that he will be burdened with it the rest of his life. But not everyone thinks the same way. Everyone is different, many people think alike, however, there is always the exception. an "eye for an eye" is simply a preventitive technique, which is simple and effective. It of course is cruel and mercyless, but it is effective, which is why many people still think that way. But its effectivness is undeniable, it gets rid of a potential trouble maker, as well as a burden on society. In life, as i hope everyone knows, is about analysing odds and acting to prevent the unfortunate, to an extent, which is the hard part, how far to go.

He killed someone, and theres a greater chance of him killing again than a regular person. A person who will commit an act is more likley to commit the same one, than a person who has never committed it before.

But theres plenty of ways to take care of the situation. He could be zapped(wont be though), he could spend the rest of his life in a maximum security asylum. The two safest courses for society. He could undergo extreme counseling and be adopted by willing parents(likley). or walk free. what to do?(highly unlikley he goes to juvey then prison, i really doubt it)

6satan6archist6
11-18-2008, 04:32 PM
“some people actually read and derive that a child could truly plan, and understand fully, the act of and ramifications of murder. That's completely ****ing retarded”


Completely ****ing retarded huh?


TNJN - Third graders terrorize innocent teacher (http://tnjn.com/2008/apr/09/third-graders-terrorize-innoce/)

The Unthinkable - Children who kill and what motivates them -- The Crime Library - Crime Library on truTV.com (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/kids2/index_1.html)

Dyndrilliac
11-18-2008, 08:03 PM
Do you honestly believe that those third-graders completely understood the consequences and ramification of killing their teacher, or were they just mad because they were punished and they don't understand the point of reinforcing good behavior and punishing bad behavior?

And since when are teenagers, teenage girls especially, capable of completely rational thought and logical reasoning skills? We are talking about acts of emotional distress and it is a symptom of a greater problem. Violent reactionary behavior is not the same as cold and calculating plotting.

CrazyGerbilEater
11-18-2008, 08:11 PM
there cannot be exceptions, that is the basis of a law. creating an exception destroys order. It cannot be justified(all of this is of course is as if i valued the human life)

Dyndrilliac
11-18-2008, 09:28 PM
*sigh* You are a blind fool. That is precisely the cut and dry black and white thinking that undermines progress in civilized society. It is more rational and logical to eliminate bad behavior at the source on the psychological level instead of simply dealing with it as it surfaces, filling up prisons and issuing draconian sentences. While it is true that criminals of all kinds must be punished regardless of extenuating circumstances, there is a gray area that does not fall into the black and white areas that are brought to bear on the philosophical debate of good and evil. It is in this gray area where we must apply punishments with thought and care, so as to reinforce good behavior and discourage bad behavior. Otherwise we are dooming ourselves to countless prisons overflowing with both people who deserve to be there and people who don't.

CrazyGerbilEater
11-19-2008, 03:53 PM
rehabilitation is not even remotly close to being a sure thing. how does it undermine the progress in a civilized society? Its closer to a burden noones wants to have, and noone deserves to have. It is far too complex and unmanagable to deal with every little tiny problem that shows up, and to constantly survey and treat every person in existence. Be realistic, even if it were possible, itd undermine the rights of those who want to live their lives free from constant survallence, which you realize is what your saying. Your asking for a 1984.

there is no such thing as good or evil, there is only freedom and oppression.

Mookster
11-19-2008, 05:39 PM
rehabilitation is not even remotly close to being a sure thing. how does it undermine the progress in a civilized society? Its closer to a burden noones wants to have, and noone deserves to have. It is far too complex and unmanagable to deal with every little tiny problem that shows up, and to constantly survey and treat every person in existence. Be realistic, even if it were possible, itd undermine the rights of those who want to live their lives free from constant survallence, which you realize is what your saying. Your asking for a 1984.

there is no such thing as good or evil, there is only freedom and oppression.
He didn't propose a solution. He identified a problem. There was no suggestion toward privacy breaches.
Perhaps if the culture were more driven toward sentient and unbiased decision making, and the pursuit of self awareness, people might care to take the time to understand how ****ing terrible they are, and change that, so their ignorance doesn't lead them to melting down their own civilization.
But most people are so removed from their mortality that they don't even realize how worth while it is to fight their natural tendency to **** up what they're so lucky to have. So like Dyn was saying, we just aren't ready as a species; we're not intelligent enough en masse to keep the boat floating. So far, it's been pure luck; only a handful of great leaders and the trust that they gained made the creation of a great government possible, but they're all dead and incapable of maintaining the government's integrity. It's not unforseeable, that eventually the average idiots will **** **** up by placing their trust in the wrong people. Seems to have already happened maybe times, and I'm sure if it keeps happening we'll end up much like China or Russia.

Redlemon
11-25-2008, 04:09 AM
This is America right? Cause we never get that in Canada. Kids have tried to chain teachers up with handcuffs and beat them to death, but to actually kill somebody? This kid doesn't need a trial, Ritalin, a psychiatrist or anything like that. He just needs a Belt, an Extension cord, a Meter stick, and the Best goddamn Ass Wooping he's ever gonna get in his life.

Dyndrilliac
11-25-2008, 04:32 AM
Corporal punishment doesn't work. The death sentence doesn't deter crime. Beating a kid either with fists or with some kind of implement (my grandmother was quite fond of hickory whips) does not serve as a punishment, because all it teaches them is not to get caught and don't leave witnesses or evidence. If the parent or punisher simply uses intuition as has no definitive evidence, it is even worse because then you are teaching the child that regardless of whether they did it or not, if the punisher thinks they did it they will still get punished. Hence, there is no reason NOT to engage in bad behavior. When rape was a crime punishable by death, it just caused rapists to kill their victims so there would be no witnesses for a trial. Reactionary solutions are sub-moronic, and simply do not work. Any solution that has a snowball's chance in hell of working must be a proactive solution. Also, it should be noted that these incidents are isolated. There is no evidence to support a widespread epidemic of children killers.

CrazyGerbilEater
11-25-2008, 10:08 AM
Id say alot more, but that'd be boring and repetitive.

Psychology 101.

Deterrence is conditioning, for any of your actions something happens in response. We want it so that if any law is broken, such or such is a punishment that will happen. That thought needs to be in every person. The punishment must be feared/not wanted. The earlier the age the easier, but as a person grows, the conditioning will become less effective unless reinforced with something far stronger. A child can be conditioned so that simply disappointing a person is enough. An adult needs something stronger. To deter you must not want the punishment for the crime. How much you do not want it will decide how effective a deterrent it is.

We cannot reward everyone for not committing crimes sufficiently to stop crime, unless that reward is not being punished. no reasonable reward can trump stealing a couple million dollars from a bank.

So what do people fear.
Death, Pain, and Imprisonment are the broadest fears. Imprisonment being less of a fear for many, it is used partly as a deterrent, as well as rehabilitation and a way to separate criminals from the rest of society. Fears are the simplest deterrents to use. An adult is very capable of not caring what society thinks of them or their effect on others, therefore you cannot deter someone simply by telling them it is wrong. It may work for some, but a greater portion will simply not care. The ends justify the risks.

The most effective deterrent would be to identify a phobia of each criminal, and act on it to punish them. That would stop many from acting on impulses, and keep them in order.

The goal is that the ends do not justify the risks. If a person cannot be punished, they have no deterrent, and therefore are a risk to society and must be separated from society in some way.

We do not keep ourselves ignorant, we do not brainwash our citizens so much that they lose their freedoms. Not all people are capable of destroying their self-awareness and acting for the greater good, or putting society and order above self satisfaction. People put themselves first, and I believe that to be freedom. The ability to put yourself first, and do things to satisfy yourself before others. The United States proudly says that they give everyone such freedom, but for how long.

Without losing that freedom, fear is the only way to do it effectively.

Give another way to deter people anyone in this thread, really, give another way to maintain order while keeping our freedom. I do not want a 1984, nor a Brave New World. Without the, but everyone can love each other and not commit crimes because crimes are bad talk, it doesn't work, proved by all the wonderful attempts at communism.

Do not naysay the system unless you have a solution, and mookster, the reason i reacted that way was because he identified what he believed to be a problem, without giving a "better" way. So of course I assumed he meant the only other effective way, which was eliminating freedom, hence the reference to 1984. He continues to naysay the system in place pointlessly, his argument is void, he says we should do something, but only says what not to do. Its a retarded argument.

also, office blows, this Microsoft office class sucks, freaken 6 assignments every class period. Not to mention the quizzes and tests. Easy, but extremely annoying. and whats good or bad is a stupid concept, and its extremely influenced by religion(catholic church).

Dyndrilliac
11-25-2008, 11:10 AM
Idiot, death is an abstract concept, therefore it can't be used as a reasonable and effective deterrent measure. What do you remember of before you were born, or even, after you were born? What do you know of what happens after you're dead? The mind is a cognitive device, and as far as it knows, it has always existed and it will always continue to exist. It amounts to a pathological sense of immortality. And, even if you could effectively use an abstract concept like death to deter wrongdoing, you have to realize that people who do stupid things aren't methodically considering all the pros and cons of their actions. Therefore, fear of death, imprisonment, or pain rarely factors into the decision making process. Crime is often impulsive, even when planned and premeditated. Any career criminal will tell you that planning can only take you so far, and when you are doing any kind of criminal job, just as it is the nature of all things, conditions change thereby forcing the plan to change and adapt with them.

Also, the idea that you shouldn't criticize a flawed and pointless system without an alternative in mind is ridiculous. If it were up to me however, I would suggest a purge of the undesirable element (read: kill the worthless dregs and proven criminals/psychopaths) so we could undergo a clean slate, or tabula rasa as Aristotle would say. From there it is simply a matter of enforcing parents to raise their children properly and promote good mental health, which is the underlying cause of the vast majority of crime. The other underlying cause is the necessity of crime, but that's really only valid for theft, burglary, larsony, and other financial crimes.

The fact of the matter is, crime would not exist if people would take personal responsibility.

DeathTheKid
11-25-2008, 12:33 PM
Wow, that's just wrong, but hey that's reality.

BD-ICY
11-25-2008, 12:38 PM
Idiot, death is an abstract concept, therefore it can't be used as a reasonable and effective deterrent measure. What do you remember of before you were born, or even, after you were born? What do you know of what happens after you're dead? The mind is a cognitive device, and as far as it knows, it has always existed and it will always continue to exist. It amounts to a pathological sense of immortality. And, even if you could effectively use an abstract concept like death to deter wrongdoing, you have to realize that people who do stupid things aren't methodically considering all the pros and cons of their actions. Therefore, fear of death, imprisonment, or pain rarely factors into the decision making process. Crime is often impulsive, even when planned and premeditated. Any career criminal will tell you that planning can only take you so far, and when you are doing any kind of criminal job, just as it is the nature of all things, conditions change thereby forcing the plan to change and adapt with them.

Also, the idea that you shouldn't criticize a flawed and pointless system without an alternative in mind is ridiculous. If it were up to me however, I would suggest a purge of the undesirable element (read: kill the worthless dregs and proven criminals/psychopaths) so we could undergo a clean slate, or tabula rasa as Aristotle would say. From there it is simply a matter of enforcing parents to raise their children properly and promote good mental health, which is the underlying cause of the vast majority of crime. The other underlying cause is the necessity of crime, but that's really only valid for theft, burglary, larsony, and other financial crimes.

The fact of the matter is, crime would not exist if people would take personal responsibility.


So kill all the criminals and tell people how to raise their children?

Seems like that would piss off A LOT of people.

Dyndrilliac
11-25-2008, 01:34 PM
He demanded my suggestion and I gave it to him. It isn't my fault people can't raise their children properly, and we've wasted thousands of years reactively trying to stop crime when reactionary responses to ever-present problems is by nature folly.

If your refrigerator breaks and can't keep your food cold anymore, you don't fill it with ice to lower the temperature and temporarily fix the issue, you throw it out and buy a new fridge or if the appliance can be properly repaired you call the appropriate technician, thus fixing the problem at it's source. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that crude and temporary repair measures won't solve anything. Why do you think the Romans eventually abandoned Britannia? They finally realized that they could reconquer the barbarian tribes and repair Hadrian's Wall a million times over, and they still wouldn't be able to effectively govern the region, and all that comes from the process is a loss of soldiers. As cold as it sounds, sometimes it's just easier to start from scratch, and that concept applies to humans as well as it does everything else.

Redlemon
11-25-2008, 01:40 PM
I still think that kids these days are getting influenced by bad people A.K.A Brainwashed. Like honestly isn't that shocking, you expect an 8 year old to be playing with Bionicles or something.

Dyndrilliac
11-25-2008, 02:09 PM
Influencing != Brainwashing.

If religion teaches us anything, it's that people are capable of doing lot's of dumb things with very little help, and children are especially no exception.

DeathTheKid
11-25-2008, 03:07 PM
I still think that kids these days are getting influenced by bad people A.K.A Brainwashed. Like honestly isn't that shocking, you expect an 8 year old to be playing with Bionicles or something.
Yeah, I totally agree with the brain wash part Bionicles<Bratz K, Thx.

Btw nice avi and sig lol. I lol'd like 3 times looking at that in different forums.

TearsOfAngels
11-27-2008, 11:08 AM
I agree with Dyn on his idea of a tabula rasa but I'm not convinced it would work. Humanity has gotten into such a rut as to what it thinks is right that it is willing to walk over corpses to get there, and has on several occasions.

Reactive punishment, as is being demonstrated here, is flawed. We should instill enoug of a modicum of fear that people know what happens when they do something wrong they'll suffer the consequences. People like to think they're more developed then animals in this aspect, but we're not, we're just animals with more contrasting responses.

As for the article about the 3rd graders, most of the times there are two factors. The aforementioned linear thinking, and a fact that Dyn and others have broached, most notably the fact that a lot of these children grow up with poor, or no parenting. Now don't think I'm trying to pin this on the parents, but if they could raise a child worth a **** where they could know what's going to happen, and that they have some degree of probable doubt, we might have a good society.

Might.

macmandude
11-27-2008, 01:24 PM
To argue that an 8-year old was able to properly understand the consequences of his actions is absolutely absurd. There's a differnece between, "I'm angry, and I'm gonna shoot my Dad" and "I'm angry because of _____, and because of that, I believe his actions justified his death, and I've gone to lengths to plan his murder, as well as a co-workers". It's just not possible, 8-year olds don't have a developed enough brain to understand that.

Redlemon
11-29-2008, 10:16 PM
Influencing != Brainwashing.

If religion teaches us anything, it's that people are capable of doing lot's of dumb things with very little help, and children are especially no exception.
Finally we're not arguing.


Yeah, I totally agree with the brain wash part Bionicles<Bratz K, Thx.

Btw nice avi and sig lol. I lol'd like 3 times looking at that in different forums.

I used to LOVE Bonicles, till my step dad threw them all in the garbage:faint2:. They caused my marks to down to "B"s and "C"s.

I love my avatar XD (it's Twelve from street fighter)
signature is too funny.

Kids these days... Don't even get me started with the wanna be gangster little kids. But really, the media has screwed around with our kids' minds, including music, Mainly Metal and Rap which promote violence, rape, death, drugs, (etc).