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Deg™
10-04-2008, 09:09 AM
Now, i don't support either of the Zeitgeist movies, as the first one is mainly conjecture and baseless claims, and the second continues that legacy, the first part of Zeitgeist addendum shows a very interesting view on our economic system.

Some of the facts here are undeniable, but my question is; how would we escape from such a system if in fact it truly is as influential as the movie suggests?

Ghost-Flight
10-04-2008, 07:37 PM
Zeitgeist: Addendum (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912)

For those who dont know what hes talking about

NickF
10-04-2008, 07:53 PM
Ron Paul agrees, and is actually in part of this movie. Obviously they make conclusions that dont make sense to the facts, but the root of thge movie is true.
Thus, it must hold some truth. How we would get rid of it, I do not know.

Irene
10-05-2008, 03:56 AM
I strongly disagree with the movie. Money is not loan, it's a trust and it has a value. Obviously, the more money the government have printed, the less value. Which is why there is an exchange rate. e.g. 1 million = 100 million yen!

The movie is playing with maths to confuse her viewers. Imagine one day where the US government suddenly gave you and everyone 100 million USD. Will you feel happy about it? You'll worry that the 100 million can no longer buy you a piece of bread. You'll do your homework, to find out it's real value. In the movie, the bank accepts 100 million straight with no questions asked, it finally led to lots of strange theories.

KenshinHimura
10-05-2008, 12:26 PM
I strongly disagree with the movie. Money is not loan, it's a trust and it has a value. Obviously, the more money the government have printed, the less value. Which is why there is an exchange rate. e.g. 1 million = 100 million yen!

The movie is playing with maths to confuse her viewers. Imagine one day where the US government suddenly gave you and everyone 100 million USD. Will you feel happy about it? You'll worry that the 100 million can no longer buy you a piece of bread. You'll do your homework, to find out it's real value. In the movie, the bank accepts 100 million straight with no questions asked, it finally led to lots of strange theories.

It is true, the economic theory posed by him is partially incorrect - yet your view isn't much better.

The basic principal discussed is how fractional reserve banking increases the money supply. This happens when the 10% reserve is taken from the deposit to be kept as the reserve for withdrawal and the rest is loaned out and continued by this cycle.

The premise is that all money is created this way, and that the Fed creates the money used in this transaction of government bonds. This is false.

First of all, the Fed does not create the money, the Treasury Department is in charge of printing money. The Fed will decide to increase the money supply and thus the Treasury will print the money.

Second, money is created as a debt to the US Government. Not all of it is based on loans. It is created with out interest, however our government does pay interest on the debt issued to those who buy bonds (which is paid to the bond owner as interest). Anyone can buy government bonds.

The other major error in the discussion of how the financial system enslaves us is debt and inflation. These things are drawn out to be bigger problems than they really are.

First, Inflation at a steady rate is natural, and does not harm anyone. Unexpected Inflation does. The reason for this is that when inflation is at a steady rate, loans and prices of all goods and services will adjust to that expected inflation rate, and thus it has absolutely no effect on anyone except for fixed income earners (most of those don't exist because of COLAs or Cost Of Living Adjustments for those on salaries). Thus a steady rate of ~1% inflation, which is what we have had for a very long time, is healthy.

Second, debt. Debt is a term used with a negative connotation too frequently in this movie. They assume that everyone must get loans, and that everyone must pay these back with interest and actually afford to do so. Debt is perfectly fine, and the reason why the United States will always be in debt, even when we have a "surplus", is because all money created is debt of the United States. Thus, there is no reason to call this debt bad. Debt will stimulate our economy, create jobs, and increase GDP. Only when we are at the far end of our production possibility curve, is new debt detrimental because it creates unexpected inflation which is not accounted for in prices, and our dollar's buying power is greatly reduced. However the debt of the money supply is not detrimental because if the supply of money is expected, so is any inflation caused by it.

If you know about old economic theory, and the whole picture in general, Keynes suggested an AD-AS (aggregate supply - aggregate demand) model that had a horizontal AS line that would mean any increase in government spending or an easy-money policy would not effect the price-level (increased inflation) and would only lessen unemployment and increase GDP. This is true and only true at a time where there is a recession, like the one we are headed towards now. The way that we will pay for this debt, over time, is with inflated dollars, which will be anticipated and accounted for in the price level in the long run.

The government, unlike suggested by this movie, will not go bankrupt. It is following the business cycle, which includes recessions and growth periods. Sadly, something wrong happened for us to be heading down a recession this hard, which is why the economy is the number 1 issue in the election. However, if no action is taken, the economy WILL rebound - it just may stay in a recession for longer. The 700 Billion bailout only adds money to the market to slow this recession, and to increase the elite's wealth gap if you want to think of it that way.

Sorry for the long post and possibly confusing you - if you need me to clear something up (or any mistakes), let me know. Did this while I am sleepy.

hellinsect
10-05-2008, 01:02 PM
KenshinHimura seems to think that things are not as bad as they seem and thats what most of us want to believe even if its not true. However, some of the problems are undeniable. The human mindset that leads to these problems is very interesting. This video addresses this mindset at the end, but does it in a bad way. Basically it says that we all need to believe in ourselves. I'll explain why this is actually a bad thing to say at the end of this video.

There are 2 main human desires - the desire for control and the desire for acceptance.

Control
If you want to play video games or watch TV all night its because you want to control the way you feel. If you can never do your homework until the last minute and are constantly procrastinating, its because you are caring too much about controlling yourself. Boredom and sleeping whenever you can is a symptom of control issues.

Acceptance
If you buy new sports car to try to impress everyone then you are doing this to get acceptance. If you have to look perfect and are always trying to impress everyone around you, then you have acceptance issues. If you can get everyone to complement and praise how well you can do something, then you believe that you are being accepted.

Both control and acceptance are illusions are destructive desires. Marketers are trained on how to exploit these desires. Someone that can make a game, and video, new face wash or sports car can make money by selling stuff to people that are trying to satisfy these desires even for just a little while. Sales people are trained to encourage and exploit these negative desires.

As a nerd that watches conspiracy videos I would say I have control issues. This video says that the solution can be found when people, that aren't getting acceptance they feel they need, realize that they can stop having those desires. It doesn't address the issue that relates to the audience watching it which are control issues - not acceptance issues.

Watch the end of the Zeitgeist Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912) and see what I mean.

bat
10-05-2008, 01:42 PM
Some of the facts here are undeniable, but my question is; how would we escape from such a system if in fact it truly is as influential as the movie suggests?

The answer to your question is that we cant realistically escape it as a whole, nor should we as the few smart individuals want to.

Unless you plan on going into politics and have even greater amount of luck than obama on your side, it is almost not worth your time to bother yourself with bringing change to the system. As cynical as it seems, I've just conceded that it’s more worth ones time to simply operate within it, as that’s just reality of the situation.

As far the only thing you can change, yourself, you assumed goal is to not just be another rat running with the rest of the pack, right? Its not that hard, you just gotta be smart and recognize opportunity. Instead of sulking about the present economy and high college loans, do what some of the more opportunist few of us have done: go to a junior college.

Not sure about you but in California two years of community college cost me about the same as one 10 week quarter costs me at my current University. The difficulty is infinitely easier there so it would give you more time to get strait A's as well find a way to get money. In your case it would be to get a job, or in my case, be one to start a small consulting firm. And when you take out loans, and instead of bitching about having to pay them, think of them as the easiest and best way to establish an excellent credit and FICO score, something which will benefit you tremendously in the future when you want to say, take out funds to start your own business.

With all the money you make in this time, find a good investment for it. In my case was at first the stock market, but have since found myself more attracted to the more sure housing. When you go to college instead of living on campus with the other rats (as I am currently), see the opportunity in the situation.
Massive foreclosures + 850 billion bailout of additional mortgages = unprecedented amounts of opportunities. There have been unbelievable amounts of short sale foreclosures in my neighboring upscale beach city La Jolla, CA. It means that with enough money and help, one can be bought and lived in as well as rented out. When the amount of rent incoming is more than the mortgage you pay, they are effectively paying you to live there. Add to the equation that housing prices will very likely be back on the rise in 5+ years, what you have is a sound investment.

As far as school: if you can graduate in 1 year after transfer and the average salary for someone with your degree is three times the amount of the entire time you spend at that college, the result is in effect getting paid a lot of money to go to college.

so to answer your question, "how would we escape from such a system?"

Get the system to work for you and become one of the people who doesn't want the system to change.

We all have our own current day situations and can have our own immediate interpretations and reactions to a film like this, but in the end the lesson to be learned here is in the end: it just goes in one ear, out the other. Play the game as if nothing is going to change but yourself

Sorry about that. I started off answering your question but I soon realized I was diarrhea’ing out a darkhorse candidate idea for my MBA application letter in my head while watching.

Also, btw: Michigan sucks cock. Ohio State Buckeyes for life.
Deep inside you know this to be true.

CrazyGerbilEater
10-05-2008, 02:33 PM
i disagree slightly with what you said usmc, i think we should influence people around ourselves to try and improve the system.

escapeing the system is usually worse that simply letting the system get worse, i mean look at russia, they've "escaped" alot of systems. and it turned out ****ty for them didnt it. instead try to improve the system by improving those around you.

by thinking that you dont make a difference, you may degrade the system. true, you by yourself dont make a difference, but by deluding yourself, or simply pretending that you do make a difference, you improve the system. becuase if everyone deluded themselves into beleiving they make a difference, then they would make a difference.

but even if you dont think you make a difference, as long as you dont negativly influence people around you, its all good.

i have slighht control issues it seems, cuz i procrastinate alot, and play alot of games/watch movies/shows.
though no acceptance issues, i dont really care what other people think of me, i just like the conflict in arguing.

Super
10-05-2008, 02:52 PM
Massive foreclosures + 850 billion bailout of additional mortgages = unprecedented amounts of opportunities. There have been unbelievable amounts of short sale foreclosures in my neighboring upscale beach city La Jolla, CA. It means that with enough money and help, one can be bought and lived in as well as rented out. When the amount of rent incoming is more than the mortgage you pay, they are effectively paying you to live there. Add to the equation that housing prices will very likely be back on the rise in 5+ years, what you have is a sound investment.


I see, but how would a college student get the money and help to mortgage one of these houses? It seems like you'd need a lot of money. (I'm not attacking your idea, just want to know more about it)

bat
10-05-2008, 03:21 PM
It means that with enough money and help, one can be bought and lived in as well as rented out


I see, but how would a college student get the money and help to mortgage one of these houses? It seems like you'd need a lot of money. (I'm not attacking your idea, just want to know more about it)

help with money* i guess i meant to type. The help i got from others not in family is just through connections and networking and stuff. As far as my money, I invested as much money as i knew i immediately had no real use for. If you know me, you know im really cheap. I live below my means so i can one day live way above my means. So no, im not really funding the majority of what we put down on it.

Similarily, I dont get the majority share of any money gained, only as much as the percentage i put in, but at the same time I'm covered any if i lose. part of a deal i have with my uncle and mom.

They let me do this because of 401k rules and how you dont have to pay lumpsum fees on a 401k so long as its still in something considered "an investment." This is because of the future value of money vs the present concept. So they have this money laying around because they are too busy with other things, I pitched them the idea and they agreed to it.

(sorry, im doing a bad job of explaining it, in a rush. breakdown: you cant take the money in a 401k and put it in your checking account without paying the lumpsum penalty fees. If you put it in something deemed an investment, no fees. Its a workaround to the rules, letting me use it, but not theoretically use it.) I could double it, but at the same time if house prices drop (its a beach city so im pretty confident) then i could have made a **** up and deliver a sizeable hit to the familys investments.

my family approves of my entrepreneurial ways. They're behind most of my calls so far. If im right, we all gain, but if im not, then the rich ones in my family agree to the loss. My track record is okay, biggest regrets so far are not being more gutsy when i shouldve been, but the deal is set up as a learning experience.


i disagree slightly with what you said usmc, i think we should influence people around ourselves to try and improve the system. by improving those around you.

by thinking that you dont make a difference, you may degrade the system. true, you by yourself dont make a difference, but by deluding yourself, or simply pretending that you do make a difference, you improve the system. becuase if everyone deluded themselves into beleiving they make a difference, then they would make a difference.

but even if you dont think you make a difference, as long as you dont negativly influence people around you, its all good.


i understand where u are coming from, not everyone agrees with some of my cynical ways. in fact, i used to share your ideals when i was younger.

in my mind i justify it to the tune that because we don't live in a a Pareto Efficient Economy (where in order for one to gain others have to lose) and because that will never happen in this imperfect market, its still possible for me to gain and not cause harm onto others.

Its a little idealistic and ambitious for me on a small scale to be watching over others who i have no idea about, dont you think?

Also, I do try to improve others, but mostly people who i share a lot in common with and who have gone through a lot with me. Those are my trusted few and while networking brings you a ton of new acquaintances, sometimes its hard for me to tell who is truly with me, or whose just trying to ride my wave.

as you might have guessed by now, i share a lot of libertarian views on how things should be done. maybe its the way i was raised, dunno.

Super
10-05-2008, 03:38 PM
Ah, well I have a pretty small family and I don't think anyone in it has a 401k plan.

In practical terms though, what would I have to go through to acquire a mortgage for a house worth around $150? I know I'm not going to get a loan just like that considering I have no credit history. Would I have to get the loan through my parents?

bat
10-05-2008, 03:53 PM
In practical terms though, what would I have to go through to acquire a mortgage for a house worth around $150? I know I'm not going to get a loan just like that considering I have no credit history. Would I have to get the loan through my parents?

yeah it would have to be almost entirely as if your parents were buying the house and you would just sign your name somewhere. Although if i were you, i would make sure i did a lot of research. real estate is something that I've kept an eye on for the last two years since i realized the stock market wasn't really my favorite thing. I think two years is a conservative learning period if you want to be confident in your decisions.

EDIT: oh, now that i guess im not going anywhere tonight i had time to read your post better.
I assume you meant mortgage payment in the area of $150 monthly instead of a house valued at $150,000 -- correct? my mistake
Well, realistically i dont think you could find that unless you put down a huge percent of the house in down payment. As unlikely as that seems, i dont know where you live, so i cant really say.


also, i think housing prices are still going to go down (big part of the reason i havent jumped the gun yet) With the new bailout, you can bet the governments going to want to turn some of those newly bought assets into liquid sometime soon, and were going to start seeing a lot of steals flood the market.

the only houses id buy at this point in time is short sale's, and even then i would target houses that are at least 30-40k listed undervalue. For me the easiest way to learn is through experience. Find a broker, tell them ur situation, and work with them. the greatest thing about it is that you dont have to pay a dime for their services. its their job to show you the ropes, and you could be completely faking interest just to gain experience. The only time you pay them is when the sale goes through, which could be like a year after you first started bidding on houses. I must have bid on like 11 or so houses now that i had no shot on because of multiple bids (one had 45, lol), but by doing this you get experience and they disclose more information about the sale to you, so you are on the inside. Plus, they get a better feel of what you are looking for and as your friend will always have you in mind when they see a house tailored to what you want.


i think because of you guys ive missed my window to go to shopping. nuts.

anyways, something that i forgot to mention was how you can write off a lot of rent expenses in tax write offs, another reason my family backed me.

KenshinHimura
10-05-2008, 05:23 PM
KenshinHimura seems to think that things are not as bad as they seem and thats what most of us want to believe even if its not true. However, some of the problems are undeniable. The human mindset that leads to these problems is very interesting. This video addresses this mindset at the end, but does it in a bad way. Basically it says that we all need to believe in ourselves. I'll explain why this is actually a bad thing to say at the end of this video.

There are 2 main human desires - the desire for control and the desire for acceptance.

Control
If you want to play video games or watch TV all night its because you want to control the way you feel. If you can never do your homework until the last minute and are constantly procrastinating, its because you are caring too much about controlling yourself. Boredom and sleeping whenever you can is a symptom of control issues.

Acceptance
If you buy new sports car to try to impress everyone then you are doing this to get acceptance. If you have to look perfect and are always trying to impress everyone around you, then you have acceptance issues. If you can get everyone to complement and praise how well you can do something, then you believe that you are being accepted.

Both control and acceptance are illusions are destructive desires. Marketers are trained on how to exploit these desires. Someone that can make a game, and video, new face wash or sports car can make money by selling stuff to people that are trying to satisfy these desires even for just a little while. Sales people are trained to encourage and exploit these negative desires.

As a nerd that watches conspiracy videos I would say I have control issues. This video says that the solution can be found when people, that aren't getting acceptance they feel they need, realize that they can stop having those desires. It doesn't address the issue that relates to the audience watching it which are control issues - not acceptance issues.

Watch the end of the Zeitgeist Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912) and see what I mean.

I disagree with nearly everything you have said.

You must realize, Peter Joseph wants a large audience, and a large influence. You do this by overstatements, and instilling fear in the audience, much like what he did for the first video. And it worked.

This video is as popular as it is because it makes people afraid of the possibility that it is all true, so you must take it for what it is. He overstates many things of his economic theory, like debt and inflation, so that people who are clueless about these things will be afraid.

The point is, the entire movie isn't bull****, but you must realize when he is exaggerating a point for his own benefit.

Personally, I don't watch this video because I am a control freak or a nerd, but because it is smart to take in all forms of media to judge the world around you, not just through one or two sources.

And honestly, (in regards to the other post asking HALP HOW TO GET OUT DIS ****) if the system is as corrupt, evil, and defective as it is stated, it will collapse. That's when change will occur. Not before.

And you must look objectively at his plan: you can not support the world's population with the Venus Project plan. The earth is overpopulated, and for anything to change, something big must happen, which is missing.

Super
10-05-2008, 05:28 PM
[QUOTE]I assume you meant mortgage payment in the area of $150 monthly instead of a house valued at $150,000 -- correct? my mistake
Well, realistically i dont think you could find that unless you put down a huge percent of the house in down payment. As unlikely as that seems, i dont know where you live, so i cant really say.
No, I meant 150,000. I forgot to add a k* at the end of 150. :P



the only houses id buy at this point in time is short sale's, and even then i would target houses that are at least 30-40k listed undervalue. For me the easiest way to learn is through experience. Find a broker, tell them ur situation, and work with them. the greatest thing about it is that you dont have to pay a dime for their services. its their job to show you the ropes, and you could be completely faking interest just to gain experience. The only time you pay them is when the sale goes through, which could be like a year after you first started bidding on houses. I must have bid on like 11 or so houses now that i had no shot on because of multiple bids (one had 45, lol), but by doing this you get experience and they disclose more information about the sale to you, so you are on the inside. Plus, they get a better feel of what you are looking for and as your friend will always have you in mind when they see a house tailored to what you want.

anyways, something that i forgot to mention was how you can write off a lot of rent expenses in tax write offs, another reason my family backed me.
I don't know much about tax write offs. You should definitely hit me up on AIM later and fill me on all of this.